jenepherre: (EeyoreInRiverAni)
[personal profile] jenepherre
I'd like to say I find it amusing. But I'd be lying. I do recognize that when the hate meme started, it was - I'm assuming - intended as a joke. But I would hope that even the people involved can see that it's gone far beyond that now.

You know, that's something that I'll always loathe about the internet. You don't really know most of the people you communicate with, and since you can't see their expressions or hear the tone of their voice, it's extremely difficult to know when someone is joking or not. Which is why - if I ever do tease someone online - I go out of my way to make sure they know I'm just teasing or joking. Although I'd be the first to admit that I'm far from perfect and have made my share of mistakes.

Some people have no trouble letting all that vitriol just roll off their backs. Other people are more sensitive to it, and do take it personally - even if they know, logically, that it wasn't personal. Just because people in the second group have a more difficult time of it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them. We all react to things differently.

But - at the risk of becoming one of the hated - I have to say that anyone who gets a laugh from posting the kind of messages I saw on the hate meme thread needs to explore why they think it's an amusing, all-in-good-fun activity. Probably with a good therapist. No, I'm not making a joke. Anyone who gets any kind of pleasure out of hurting other people - whether it was intentional or not - has some personal issues that need to be dealt with. The people who are hurt or offended by it are generally not the people with the problem. (Yes, there are exceptions - people can end up playing the 'pity me' card, which has its own psychological causes...)

The whole thing is just sad... and so incredibly immature. Those of you who were hurt or bothered by it in some way... know that not everyone in the fandom is like that.

Those of you who were involved and who know me or have me friended... I'm not mad at anyone, and I won't unfriend anyone because of this. You're welcome to unfriend me if you want - I won't be mad about that either. I'm just sad and disappointed by the whole thing.

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 02:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] paddies.livejournal.com
I totally agree with every single word you said.

[/pointless]

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 02:46 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jenepherre.livejournal.com
Thanks. It's nice to know there are a few like-minded people on LJ. :-)

Could not agree more

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 02:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wren-kt7oz.livejournal.com

Glad you had the decency to express your opinion. Thank you.

Didn't actually catch up with the content until you posted cos I'm really not in the lj loop, but it that's what's out there, I don't want to be.

How sad and pathetic is it that some people find this is the way to get their jollies? And so much of it anonymous. Are we surprised?

So gutless, as well as pathetic.

Confirms what my suspicion has been all along about the whole lj thing, which is that it's often more about posturing and demonstrating how cdol one is than actual talent or intelligent input into the fandom.

(Present company excepted of course. LOL).


W

Re: Could not agree more

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 02:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jenepherre.livejournal.com
Well, I hesitate to call them pathetic, because I honestly think it can be caused by various emotional problems, which may very well not be their fault. But yeah...

As far as LJ often being about posturing, etc... I see that a lot more in the QAF fandom than in other fandoms I'm in. They all have their problems, but QAF is bad...

My feeling is just that I'm not gonna go down that road. I'd much rather have people like me for who I am than for who I could pretend to be, you know?

Thanks for the support, Wren.

Re: Could not agree more

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 03:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wren-kt7oz.livejournal.com
It's the smug superiority that comes across in so many comments that bugs me ... especially comments about stuff on the lists, or writers who don't post in lj.

It really makes me wonder what is their problem that they can only get validation by putting someone else down? And in such a cowardly way, where the people they are commenting about will most probably never even see it. But meanwhile they are creating an impression about that writer, or person, in the minds of a whole lot of others.

I don't know. I just think it's weird. And unhealthy. Their are no boundaries, no restraints. And the fact that so much of what I find in ljs is very negative about anyone who is not part of whichever particular little clique ... does not make me comfortable with it as a format. Except in specific cases where I'm reasonably confident that I'm dealing with someone who is basically a decent human being.

Sorry, didn't mean to maunder on. Just trying to work through some stuff in my own head, I guess.

But as for the support ... you are most welcome.

W

Re: Could not agree more

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 03:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] paddies.livejournal.com
I don't know. I just think it's weird. And unhealthy. Their are no boundaries, no restraints. And the fact that so much of what I find in ljs is very negative about anyone who is not part of whichever particular little clique ... does not make me comfortable with it as a format. Except in specific cases where I'm reasonably confident that I'm dealing with someone who is basically a decent human being.

I'm sorry that you feel that way, because, really the LJ community is not that bad, there are tons of nice, funny, intelligent, wonderful people here; there are trolls and idiots too, like everywhere else, but you should give it a chance...it kinda grows on you... :-)

Re: Could not agree more

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 04:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wren-kt7oz.livejournal.com
Yeah, I guess.

My experience and timing have just been bad, I think.

I'ts really only been in the last week or so that I've got into it to any great extent, and then all this springs up.

Haven't written it off yet though.

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I appreciate it. :)

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 03:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] irishcaelan.livejournal.com
yeah well I just suck. you got a problem with that?

Case in point...

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 03:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jenepherre.livejournal.com
See? 90% of the time I cannot tell when you're joking or not, and I've known you a while now. So to answer your question, yes I do sometimes have a problem with that, but I've learned not to take it personally. Or very seriously. Of course then how am I going to know when you are being serious?

With you, I basically just try to go with the flow... that usually works.

Re: Case in point...

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 03:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] irishcaelan.livejournal.com
No, I was referring to the fact that I was mentioned very early in the hate meme.

Randall gets me, lol. Well sometimes we have to clarify. Wait, they hate him too, lol.

Re: Case in point...

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 03:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] irishcaelan.livejournal.com
loved the sweat shop ref to the bj journal team. didn't realize it was an imposition. snickers, cracks whip, sets deadlines and stands sternly.

Re: Case in point...

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 03:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jenepherre.livejournal.com
But... I love it when you crack the whip... ::naughty grin:: If they thought that was a bad thing, they just don't know how we work.

And please - I'm the one who thought of and started the team community. LOL

Was that what they said? That you suck? I didn't remember how they phrased it, not that it matters. Heh.

Re: Case in point...

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 04:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wren-kt7oz.livejournal.com
As a member of the sweat shop ... we exist to serve. LOL.

Seriously ... that was one of the bits that just had me scratching my head cos it was like this concerns you how?

Of course, the proper response probably should have been 'jealous much'?

Re: Case in point...

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 09:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jenepherre.livejournal.com
As a member of the sweat shop ... we exist to serve.

Very true. And I like to think we're happy in our servitude. It's a good thing. Hee!

Of course, the proper response probably should have been 'jealous much'?

Sooooo right on the mark, hon.

Re: Case in point...

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 04:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mi-nion.livejournal.com
I had no idea. I looked and saw that it was 90% anon posting and didn't even bother.

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 04:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elisabet-moisio.livejournal.com
"You know, that's something that I'll always loathe about the internet. You don't really know most of the people you communicate with, and since you can't see their expressions or hear the tone of their voice, it's extremely difficult to know when someone is joking or not."

Very true - indeed. And people come different cultures.. so that can sometimes make things a bit tricky... and then there is a language barrier...

Elisabet

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 06:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] paddies.livejournal.com
and then there is a language barrier...

Tell me about it... :-)

Sometimes I just hate that I can't speak a better English...grrr

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 06:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elisabet-moisio.livejournal.com
Sometimes I just hate that I can't speak a better English...grrr

I know... but I think you're doing great anyway... but I know that because English is not our first language we tend to pay more attention to it... and I know it's ridiculous to get upset because I don't speak/write good English - but for me it's hard to ignore my own mistakes which I can see sometimes clearly - after I read it somewhere.. and I can't even edit that!!...but then there are mistakes which I make but I don't know how to correct them...=( but I just hope that people who come across with me could just bear with me... I'm trying my best anyway...

btw... I didn't post this one for pity purposes... =D just making my statement as a foreigner who speaks weird language... =)

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 06:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] paddies.livejournal.com
- but for me it's hard to ignore my own mistakes which I can see sometimes clearly - after I read it somewhere.. and I can't even edit that!!...but then there are mistakes which I make but I don't know how to correct them...=( but I just hope that people who come across with me could just bear with me... I'm trying my best anyway...

It's exactly the same for me. :-)

btw... I didn't post this one for pity purposes... =D just making my statement as a foreigner who speaks weird language... =)

I know :-)

*Sorry for the spam Jen...*

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 07:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elisabet-moisio.livejournal.com
Thanks Gio for your inputs. =)

Oh and Jen, sorry for the spam! btw.. I like you spinning Eeyore...we Finns call him Ihaa...=D

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 09:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jenepherre.livejournal.com
See comment just posted in reply to Gio's language comment here. Same goes for you. I never notice anything wrong. It's those chicks who like to abbreviate all the words by spelling them somewhat phonetically using numbers and stuff that drive me nuts.

Really?

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 09:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jenepherre.livejournal.com
I have to tell you - I've never noticed any errors with your English. In fact, I had to go to your user page to remind myself that you're from another country.

As someone who speaks Americanized English as an only language, I admire anyone who even attempts to learn it as a second language. Isn't English supposed to be one of the more difficult languages to learn? Because it's so inconsistent? Reminds me of the part in My Fair Lady...

One common language I'm afraid we'll never get.
Oh, why can't the English learn to set
A good example to people whose English is painful to your ears?
The Scotch and the Irish leave you close to tears.
There even are places where English completely disappears.
In America, they haven't used it for years!
Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?

...But use proper English you're regarded as a freak.
Why can't the English learn to speak?


Her English is too good, he said,
Which clearly indicates that she is foreign.
Whereas others are instructed in their native language
English people aren't.


So actually, you and Elizabet probably speak English better than us unsophisticated, uneducated Americans... LOL

Re: Really?

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 10:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elisabet-moisio.livejournal.com
Haha... well you know we weren't trying to fish any compliments here... but thanks Jen!! =)

My English teacher says that actually people in North Scotland speak better English or shall we say more beautiful English than people who speak 'Oxford English'. But he's a Scotch after all.. so he can say whatever he wants. =D And the Irish... uh huh... I don't understand them at all... even when they are using English it sounds so weird that's it not English anymore.. =) heh.. but I love to listen them still.. =) I just wish I could understand them too.. =)

Re: Really?

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 10:11 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] paddies.livejournal.com
I have to tell you - I've never noticed any errors with your English. In fact, I had to go to your user page to remind myself that you're from another country.

You're too nice, I make mistakes all the time...

As someone who speaks Americanized English as an only language, I admire anyone who even attempts to learn it as a second language.

Actually it's my 3th language... I studied French in school, but since I love to travel around the world I had to learn English too...
I don't have a strong grammar base (the one you usually get in school), I just wanted to understand people and communicate with them, the understanding part it's pretty much covered, but I'm still working on the speaking/writing part... ;-)

Isn't English supposed to be one of the more difficult languages to learn?

Not really, French is easier to understand (from an Italian pov), but if you want to really know it it's waaaay more complicated than English...

So actually, you and Elizabet probably speak English better than us unsophisticated, uneducated Americans... LOL

I wish. :-)

Re: Really?

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 11:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elisabet-moisio.livejournal.com
My second mother-tongue is Swedish... so it's the other official language in Finland but I'm not good at it... and actually I have studied English since I was nine...=) and still... yes - I make mistakes - =D and oh.. then I have studied German and French too... and still I think learning to speak English is much easier than learning for example German. But - dear Jen and Gio... I know you must be exhausted because of my talking so I shut up now... =)

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 04:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mi-nion.livejournal.com
The whole thing is just sad... and so incredibly immature

The thing that makes me even more sad is the back lash of it all. People are doing mass defriending and friends locking their LJ's. I understand it's everyone's right to do whatever they wish with their individual LJ, but as I read about all the people who had their feeling hurt, I can't help but be a bit saddened and disappointed in this fandom.

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 09:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jenepherre.livejournal.com
It is sad. But like I said, some people are very sensitive to this kind of thing, and even if their brain knows they shouldn't take it personally, their heart is already in pain and has to do something to protect itself. I suspect that after this all dies down, a lot of those people will gradually come back. They may not re-friend everyone they had friended before - and rightly so - but... bottom line? This too shall pass. And hopefully many of us will be wiser for having been through it.

*hugs*

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 05:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amazonx.livejournal.com
I don't know what the meme was, the community or list or whatever, but I just went through that on a list yesterday, and I'm a fucking mod on the list. I had to back down, since everyone seems OK with taking pot shots at Krycek, but gods forbid we say a crooked word about Mulder. I'm not gonna slam Mulder, I love him, really. He's so...screwed up, he's sweet. But I will not stand for insults to the Rat. My other co-mod and the listmom all agree, the lists we run are Rat-friendly zones, and no character bashing will be allowed. I took a lesson from Ursula on that.

*hugs again* Love you, baby and I hope you're doing well. I want an off-LJ message on what's going on. I miss those narratives about you, kept me up to date. Remember, there are folks out there (me!) that respect your talent and your sweetness. Can ya mail ME some sweetness? I done ran out! :)

Re: *hugs*

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 10:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jenepherre.livejournal.com
There's a link to the thread in question on the first line of my post... if you really want to look at it. This had nothing to do with bashing characters on the show though - it was all about bashing members of the fandom. Which is just so much worse.

And yeah! No bashing the Rat!

Love you too sweets, and will try to write as soon as I can. I'd mail you some sweetness, but mine is slightly sour at the moment. Sorry. :-(

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 06:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stillife.livejournal.com
I just want to say - well said! I read the hate meme, some of it anyway. It had a morbid fascination, like watching a massive multi-vehicle collision, one of those chain-effect things. I've also read some of the reactions to the meme. Yours is the most well-reasoned, dispassionate, non-judgmental of any I've come across. I don't know you at all - you're on my friends list because of the G/R community - but I admire your compassion, maturity and common sense.

Wow.

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 09:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jenepherre.livejournal.com
Thank you so much... I really appreciate you saying that. I'm just as insecure as the next person, but I really try to keep it all in perspective. Maybe this time I actually succeeded? :-)

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 06:56 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ozbrat.livejournal.com
I didn't even know that thread existed until you posted this. So I went to have a look and.. 16 pages?! Whoa! I'll admit I found myself laughing at some of the jokes between [livejournal.com profile] eleveninches and co., but on the whole it's a pretty disgusting thread.

It shows how naive I am though. Considering I spend 99% of my time online with a certain bunch of people, I don't see or know about the hate within the fandom. In fact, up until now, I thought it was a pretty friendly fandom. Boy was I wrong :(

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 10:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jenepherre.livejournal.com
There were some posts there that were funny, and you could tell it was friends teasing each other. But sadly, those posts were in the minority on that thread.

Don't go thinking you were wrong about the fandom being friendly. If you've had good experiences with people in the fandom, don't let something like this tarnish that! Consider yourself lucky - and probably a good judge of character. ;-)

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 12:07 pm (UTC)
ext_45636: sorta my hometown (Default)
From: [identity profile] phibetafunkay.livejournal.com
The first couple of pages made me chuckle a bit, and then further on I just ran outta there. Such vitriol and spite. **sigh**

Date: Monday, April 5th, 2004 12:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shimmergirl.livejournal.com
I found it all very sad. That's how a lot of people are though, they find a way to hide and then start talking. I was less disturbed by those who didn't post anonymously. At least then you know who you were dealing with, you know?

I've thought on a lot of the comments, especially the one where the writer is so kindly *cough* defining what the QAF fandom is. While I will agree there are some questionable people (as in any fandom), the good things are far more than the negative. If it that wasn't the case, I certainly wouldn't still be around.

Date: Tuesday, April 6th, 2004 06:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] queenydiva.livejournal.com
I have just one thing to say: WORD, Jen. You put my own feelings into words perfectly.

Queen

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